TUESDAY, 21st JULY, 1925.


The Committee consisted of the following Members:

Major Sir Richard Barnett (Chairman)

Adamson, Mr. William (Fife, W.)

*Advocate, The Lord (Carlisle)

Alexander, Sir William (Glasgow, Central)

Atholl, Duchess of (Kinross and W. Perth)

*Balniel, Lord (Lonsdale)

Barr, Mr. (Motherwell)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Berry, Sir George (Scottish Universities)

*Bethel, Mr. (Eccles)

Boothby, Mr. (Aberdeen, E.)

Broun-Lindsay, Major (Partick)

Brown, Mr. James (Ayrshire, S.)

Buchanan, Mr. (Gorbals)

Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, South)

Charteris, Brigadier-General (Dumfries)

Cochrane, Commander (Fife, East)

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Couper, Mr. J. B. (Maryhill)

Cowan, Mr. (Scottish Universities)

*Cowan, Sir Henry (Islington, North)

Craik, Sir Henry (Scottish Universities)

*Crawfurd, Mr. (Walthamstow, West)

Crookshank, Colonel (Berwick and Haddington)

Dalkeith, Earl of (Roxburgh and Selkirk)

Elliot, Captain (Kelvingrove)

Fanshawe, Commander (Clackmannan and Western)

Ford, Mr. (Edinburgh, North)

Gilmour, Sir John (Pollok)

Graham, Mr. Duncan (Hamilton)

Graham, Mr. William (Edinburgh, Central)

Hamilton, Sir Robert (Orkney and Shetland)

Hardie, Mr. (Springburn)

Harvey, Mr. Charles Barclay- (Kincardine, Western)

Henderson, Mr. Thomas (Tradeston)

Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Admiral Sir A. (Galloway)

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Horne, Sir Robert (Hillhead)

Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-General Sir A. (Bute and North Ayrshire)

Hutchison, Mr. Clark (Midlothian and Peebles, North)

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Johnston, Mr. (Dundee)

Kennedy, Mr. Thomas (Kirkcaldy)

Kidd, Mr. (Linlithgow)

Kirkwood, Mr. (Dumbarton Burghs)

Livingstone, Mr. MacKenzie (Western Isles)

*Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh (Isle of Ely)

MacAndrew, Mr. (Kilmarnock)

Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

MacDonald, Mr. Robert (Cathcart)

MacIntyre, Mr. (Edinburgh, West)

Maclean, Mr. Neil (Govan)

Macpherson, Mr. (Ross and Cromarty)

Macquisten, Mr. (Argyllshire)

MacRobert, Mr. (Renfrew, East)

Maxton, Mr. (Bridgeton)

Mitchell, Mr. Rosslyn (Paisley)

Mitchell, Mr. Stephen (Lanark)

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel (Ayr Burghs)

*Morrison, Mr. Robert (Tottenham, North)

Murnin, Mr. (Stirling and Falkirk)

*Palin, Mr. John (Newcastle, West)

*Richardson, Mr. Robert (Houghton-le-Spring)

Robertson, Mr. John (Bothwell)

Rose, Mr. (Aberdeen, North)

*Russell, Mr. (Tynemouth)

Scrymgeour, Mr. (Dundee)

Shaw, Lieut.-Colonel A. D. (Renfrew, W.)

Shiels, Dr. (Edinburgh, E.)

*Simms, Mr. (Down)

Sinclair, Major Sir Archibald (Caithness and Sutherland)

*Sinclair, Colonel (Belfast University)

Skelton, Mr. (Perth)

Smith, Mr. R. W. (Aberdeen, Central)

Solicitor-General for Scotland, The (Dumbarton)

Sprot, Sir Alexander (Lanark, N.)

*Steel, Major (Ashford)

Stephen, Mr. (Camlachie)

Stewart, Mr. James (St. Rollox)

Stuart, Mr. (Moray and Nairn)

Templeton, Mr. (Banff)

Thomson, Mr. Frederick (Aberdeen, S.)

*Warrender, Sir Victor (Grantham)

Watson, Mr. Maclean (Dunfermline)

Weir, Mr. McNeill (Clackmannan and Eastern)

Welsh, Mr. (Coatbridge)

Westwood, Mr. (Peebles and Southern)

Wheatley, Mr. (Shettleston)

*Windsor, Mr. (Bethnal Green, N. E.)

Wright, Mr. (Rutherglen)

* Added in respect of the Education (Scotland) (Superannuation) Bill

MR. WILLIAMS Committee Clerks.

MR. DENT Committee Clerks.

1461 STANDING COMMITTEE ON SCOTTISH BILLS. Tuesday, 21st July, 1925.

[Major Sir RICHARD BARNETT in the Chair.]



The CLERK read the Financial Resolution (15th July, 1925): "That it is expedient, in pursuance of any Act of the present Session, to make further provision with regard to the grant of superannuation and other allowances to teachers in Scotland and to their legal personal representatives and to the payment of contributions towards the cost of such allowances, to authorise the payment into the Education (Scotland) Fund, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of such sums as may become payable thereinto in respect of (a) the amount collected and recovered in the year commencing the 1st day of April, 1925, by the Scottish Education Department under Section one of the Education (Scotland) (Superannuation) Act, 1922, as amended by the said Act of the present Session, and (b) any contributions or balance of contributions returned in terms of Section two of the School Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1922, or in terms of any Act amending the same, as well as any sums paid as compensation in terms of Section three thereof in the year commencing the 1st day of April, 1926, and every subsequent year."

Clauses 1 (Extension of period during which contributions by or in respect of teachers are to be payable), 2 (Contributions towards benefits under Superannuation Scheme), and 3 (Amending Scheme to be framed) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

—(Provisions of amending Scheme.)

(1) The amending Scheme to be framed in pursuance of the immediately preceding Section of this Act shall include provision—

  • for the repayment to a teacher or to his legal personal representatives, in circumstances and on conditions to be prescribed, of contributions made by 1462 him in terms of the Acts of 1922 and 1924 or of this Act, together with compound interest on each contribution as from the prescribed date calculated at the rate of three per centum per annum with yearly rests and for the cancellation on such repayment of the service in respect of which the said contributions were paid:
  • for permitting a teacher in circumstances and on conditions to be prescribed to repay the sums repaid to him under the foregoing provisions of this Section or under Section two of the Act of 1922, together with compound interest thereon calculated from the date of repayment to him at the rate of four per centum per annum with yearly rests, and for the restoration to such teacher on such repayment by him of such claims under the Superannuation Scheme as he would have had if no repayment had been made to him;
  • for securing that the total amount of benefit payable to any teacher or to his legal personal representatives together with compound interest on any benefit calculated from the date of payment at three per centum per annum with yearly rests, shall not be less than the total amount of the contributions paid by him under the Acts of 1922 and 1924 and this Act together with compound interest on such contributions from the prescribed date calculated at three per centum per annum with yearly rests:
  • for enabling a teacher whose service is discontinued for a period not exceeding one year to pay into the Education (Scotland) Fund with the consent of the Department in respect of such period sums equal to ten per centum of his salary calculated in accordance with rules under the Superannuation Scheme, so that the said period may be reckoned as a period of service within the meaning of the Superannuation Scheme, and for determining the amount of such payments which shall be reckoned as contributions by the teacher.
  • (2) The amending Scheme shall make such other provision as appears necessary to carry out the purposes of the Act of 1919, and of this Act and, without prejudice to the generality of this enactment, may further provide— (a) for giving effect to any arrangements made with any authority administering any statutory Scheme of Superannuation for school teachers in any part of His Majesty's Dominions providing for the extension (whether with or without modification) of the Superannuation Scheme to service in the capacity of a teacher in that part of His Majesty's Dominions and for the extension of such statutory Scheme to service within the meaning of the Superannuation Scheme. For the purposes of the foregoing provision the expression "His 1463 Majesty's Dominions "includes any territory which is under His Majesty's protection or in respect of which a mandate is being exercised by the Government of any part of his Majesty's Dominions; (b) for applying on such conditions and with such modifications in regard to contributions and otherwise as may be prescribed the provisions of the Superannuation Scheme to teachers in schools which are not otherwise within the scope of the said Scheme: Provided that the contributions payable by and in respect of such teachers shall be at rates prescribed from time to time after consultation with the Government Actuary with a view to securing that the contributions paid shall be equal in value to the benefits to be accorded; (c) for the calculation of benefit in such special circumstances and in such manner as may be prescribed by reference to the actual period of service in lieu of the completed years of service; (d) for the making by the Department of rules for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of this Act and of the Superannuation Scheme as modified by the amending Scheme.

    The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Gilmour): I beg to move, in Sub-section (1, b), to leave out the word "four," and to insert instead thereof the words "three and a-half." The object of this Amendment is to extend to the Scottish teachers the benefit of a concession which was obtained on the English Bill. Its effect is to reduce by a half per cent. the rate of interest which a teacher will have to pay if, after having withdrawn his contributions, he desires to repay them and so revive his claim for pension for the years in respect of which the contributions were originally made. The change is, of course, essential if we are to secure complete reciprocity, which I am sure is the desire of the Committee.

    Mr. WILLIAM ADAMSON: I want to express my satisfaction that the Secretary for Scotland is making an arrangement of this nature that will give to the Scottish teachers the advantage given to the English teachers under their Superannuation Bill. There are a number of Amendments on the Order Paper, and I think it possibly would facilitate the work of the Committee if the right hon. Gentleman would explain each of them as we come to them.


    Sir J. GILMOUR: I intend to do so.

    Mr. WESTWOOD: I would like to support that suggestion, because I understand that this is a Measure which is non-controversial. On this particular Clause, there might have been a little controversy, because, in the interests of the teachers, we might have wanted 3 per cent. instead of 3½ per cent., but I recognise that we have to be guided practically by what was given to the teachers in the English Teachers' Superannuation Bill. It would help those of us, possibly, who are on another Committee if it were possible to get the Amendments discussed together, so as to allow us to get to the other Committee.

    Amendment agreed to.

    Sir J. GILMOUR: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1, c), after the word "payable," to insert the words "under the Superannuation Scheme." This and the next Amendment on the Paper, combined, give us the necessary power to secure by the scheme that teachers who have served both in Scotland and in England do not enjoy an unfair advantage as compared with those who have served in Scotland only. The English Bill contains corresponding safeguards, and perhaps I may give a concrete example which will show why this is considered necessary. This is what might conceivably happen: A teacher might serve for 30 years in Scotland, cross the border, and die within a few months of making the change. His legal representatives would receive from the Board of Education a death gratuity in the shape of a year's salary and could, at the same time, apply to the Scottish Education Department for the return, with interest, of all the contributions that he had ever paid. I am sure the Committee will agree that this would not be a reasonable situation, and it is because of that that I move these two Amendments.

    Amendment agreed to.

    Further Amendment made:

    In paragraph (1, c), after the word "not," to insert the words "(save as may be otherwise provided in cases where benefit is payable also under the Teachers (Superannuation) Acts, 1918 to 1925)."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]


    Sir J. GILMOUR: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1, d), to leave out the words "one year," and to insert instead thereof the words: "four years in the case of a teacher who during the period is in full-time employment as a teacher in any part of His Majesty's Dominions outside the United Kingdom, and not exceeding one year in any other case." This Amendment, like the first of the series, is designed to give effect to the concession which was made by my Noble Friend in Committee on the English Bill. Its object is to facilitate the taking of service by teachers in other parts of the Empire for a limited period in cases where climatic and other considerations render prolonged residence abroad undesirable for Europeans. It is understood that the Amendment has been welcomed by the Colonial Office and by those responsible for the management of missionary schools, and I have much pleasure in moving that it be agreed to.

    Amendment agreed to.

    Sir J. GILMOUR: I beg to move, in Sub-section (2, b), at the end, to add the words "in respect of such contributions." The object of this Amendment is to make it clear that teachers in non-grant-aided schools which may come into our superannuation system on the basis of paying the full cost shall not be required to meet the expense of any special concessions which might be granted to them in the way of an allowance for years of back service. The Committee on the English Bill inserted identical words on the proposal of the President of the Board of Education.

    Amendment agreed to.

    Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

    Mr. MacROBERT: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what is the prescribed date mentioned in Sub-section (1, c)? I cannot find it in the Clause.

    Sir J. GILMOUR: That will be prescribed in the Rules which will be subsequently issued. The actual question will come on Clause 9.

    Mr. WESTWOOD: The prescribed date, I understand, cannot be given to the Committee till the Rules are drawn up.


    Sir J. GILMOUR: That is so.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    CLAUSE 5.
    —(Application of Scheme as modified by amending Scheme.)

    The Superannuation Scheme as modified by the amending Scheme to be framed in pursuance of Section three of this Act shall apply to all teachers who are or shall be in service within the meaning of the Superannuation Scheme on or after the first day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, provided always that if any teacher who is in such service on the said date, or any teacher who having discontinued such service prior to the said date returns to such service thereafter, gives notice to the Department within three months of the said date or of the date of such return as the case may be that he does not accept the amending Scheme the provisions of the Superannuation Scheme shall continue to apply to such teacher to the same effect as if the amending Scheme had not been made.

    Sir J. GILMOUR: I beg to move, to leave out the word "to" ["shall apply to all teachers"], and to insert instead thereof the words "in view of the scheme in operation prior to the first day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, to (i)." This Amendment is closely connected with the one I propose to move at the end of the Clause. I will explain the two Amendments together. I am advised that, under the Clause as drafted, teachers whose service in Scottish schools lies in the past and who are now employed in schools in England, in universities, or in any form of what the English Bill calls "approved external service," would require to resume service in a Scottish school in order to get the full benefits of reciprocity. That would be clearly unjust, and the first Amendment is designed to free them from the shackles of the old scheme, while the second brings them within the ambit of the new one. The prescription which is contemplated will be found in Subhead 2 of the draft scheme.

    Amendment agreed to.

    Amendment made: After the word "scheme" ["within the meaning of the superannuation scheme"], to insert the words "as so modified."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

    Mr. COWAN: I beg to move to leave out the word "three" ["within three months of the said date"], and to insert instead thereof the word "six." 1467 The object of this is to give a somewhat longer time to a teacher to make a choice between coming under the new scheme and remaining under the old. I quite recognise that the three months in the Bill are quite sufficient in an ordinary case for a teacher who is in service on 1st April, 1926, or for a teacher who resumes thereafter, but there is one case of hardship which might arise and that is the case of a teacher who on 1st April, 1926, while in service may be in such a state of bad health as to be incapable of forming a correct judgment as between the two schemes. The final insertion of "six" instead of "three" would not quite obviate that but would lessen it. I should prefer that the Department should have a discretionary power which they could exercise in cases of that sort.

    Sir J. GILMOUR: I quite realise the importance of the point, but all I can say now is that I should like to consider the question between now and Report. I do not think it would be wise to extend the period, but it is conceivable that some discretionary power might be vested in the Department, and I should be willing to give that favourable consideration.

    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    Sir J. GILMOUR: I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the words "and provided also that in the Superannuation Scheme as it applies to him, any reference to contributions payable under Section 1 of the Education (Scotland) (Superannuation) Act, 1922, shall be deemed to include a reference to contributions payable under Section two (1) (a) of this Act." Teachers who elect to remain under the provisions of the existing Superannuation scheme are required by Clause 2 to contribute just as their colleagues did in the scheme of 1919. However, the article which provides for the return of contributions refers specifically to contributions paid under the Act of 1922. Without the words I propose to insert, the teachers to whom I have referred could not receive their further contributions back at all. This, we think, would be unfair, and I have no hesitation in asking the Committee to accept the Amendment.

    Amendment agreed to.

    Amendment made: After the words last inserted, add the words 1468 "and (ii) to all teachers who, having been in service before the said date, are employed on or after that date in such employment as may be prescribed."

    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clauses 6 (Payments from Education Scotland Fund into Exchequer and from Exchequer into Education Scotland Fund), 7 (Account and Actuarial Inquiries), and 8 (Application of Section 7 of 9 and 10 Geo. 5, c. 17), ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 9.

    In this Act unless the context otherwise requires— "The Act of 1919" means the Education (Scotland) (Superannuation) Act, 1919; "The Act of 1922" means the Education (Scotland) (Superannuation) Act, 1922; "The Act of 1924" means the Education (Scotland) (Superannuation) Act, 1924; "The Superannuation Scheme" means the Teachers Superannuation Scheme framed and approved under the Act of 1919 and any amendment thereof; "The Department" means the Scottish Education Department; "Prescribed" means prescribed by the amending Scheme to be made under this Act.

    Sir J. GILMOUR: I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the words "or by rules under the said scheme." This is a drafting Amendment. A number of the things which Clause 4 requires to be prescribed could not be prescribed in the scheme without overloading it quite hopelessly. The intention is that they shall be prescribed by rules and the addition I now ask the Committee to accept will make this point quite clear. May I add that I have made no provision in the Bill for consulting education authorities and teachers affected about these rules before they are in final form? This is merely because the machinery for the purpose is already in existence and I look forward to obtaining the co-operation of the authorities and the teachers through the medium of a Sub-Committee of the Statutory Advisory Council.

    Mr. COWAN: I think I am correct in saying that under the English Bill the obligation is laid upon the Board of Education to consult education authorities and teachers. Here there is no such 1469 specific obligation. It might have been preferred had a form of words been found such as would have given the assurance to those concerned, authorities and teachers, that their opinions would have full weight given to them. At the same time, I recognise that the Secretary for Scotland and his advisers of the Education Department would have very considerable difficulty in appointing a Committee which might be taken as fully representative from time to time, and therefore I think we may be content with the assurance of the Secretary for Scotland, laying upon the words the same importance and the same validity as we should upon words in an Act of Parliament, so that we take his statement as a specific guarantee that all legitimate interests will be consulted in the framing of these rules.

    Amendment agreed to.

    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 10 ("Short title, extent and construction"), ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Schedule agreed to.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill, as amended, be reported to the House."

    Mr. WESTWOOD: I desire to congratulate the Secretary for Scotland on the easy passage of the Bill and to congratulate you, Sir, as Chairman, on having one of the easiest times you have had on the Scottish Grand Committee. It only proves that when there is consultation between the parties affected by any Bill which has to be considered in the Scottish Grand Committee and agreement come to, the members of the Committee can be the finest and most agreeable members when there has been consultation between the teachers and the education authorities and there has been an acceptance of the proposal by the Treasury. Whilst I should have preferred, as a member of the executive of the education authorities, to have seen something in the Bill which would guarantee by Statute that both teachers and education authorities were to be consulted in connection with these rules, on the other hand we have always been treated with the greatest fairness by the Education 1470 Department. They have always taken as into consultation in connection with matters affecting their administrative powers and the Acts which we ourselves have had to administer under the powers they were using for the time being. I believe the teachers themselves are highly satisfied with the Bill. I leave those who directly represent the teachers to speak for them, but for the education authorities, we are quite well satisfied with the bargain that has been made and I hope what has happened here to-day may be taken as a guide by some parties outside who cannot come to agreement because they will not consult the interests directly affected. If we can get as much compromise outside and as much fair dealing in the industrial field at piesent—I am dealing with the employers when I say that because my own side are always fair—if we can only get that agreement that we have had in connection with this Bill, there will be just as much harmony as there has been in this Committee. Again I congratulate the Secretary for Scotland on the easy passage of the Bill.

    Mr. COWAN: I should like to join in the congratulations which have been so felicitously offered by the hon. Member opposite. It has been my lot to be concerned in this matter of superannuation for teachers for something like 20 years, and during that period I have seen vicissitudes of one kind and another. Some of them appear for the time being progressive, others again being retrogressive. I hope, therefore, that to-day we have put a period to that chain of circumstances, and that from now on we shall have, as far as this question is concerned, peace and contentment in the schools of Scotland. We have now in this scheme on a contributory basis a guarantee of stability which we have not had for the last seven years at any rate, and I would very sincerely congratulate the Secretary for Scotland himself on having his name associated with this Measure, and also congratulate and thank his advisers for the very sympathetic spirit in which they have interpreted the words of the Act in the scheme now before us. I should like also to congratulate you, Sir Richard, on the very harmonious feeling of the Committed over which you have presided.


    Mr. ADAMSON: I would like also to congratulate the Secretary for Scotland on his good fortune in getting so easily through. I want to add the thanks and congratulations of the Committee to you, Mr. Chairman, on having got so easily through your task. I think the fact that you were able to prove Scottish descent on the last occasion that you occupied the Chair has contributed very largely to the ease with which you have got through your task this morning.


    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am very much obliged for the bouquets thrown, but, really, the credit lies with the Education Department and not with me. I associate myself with everything that has been said in reference to you, Mr. Chairman.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Bill, as amended, ordered to be reported to the House.

    Committee rose at Twenty-eight Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.


    Barnett, Major Sir Richard (Chairman)

    Adamson, Mr. William

    Berry, Sir George

    Broun-Lindsay, Major

    Cochrane, Commander

    Couper, Mr. J. B.

    Cowan, Mr.

    Craik, Sir Henry

    Crookshank, Colonel

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

    Hardie, Mr.

    Harvey, Mr. Charles Barclay-

    Hutchison, Mr. Clark

    Johnston, Mr.

    MacAndrew, Mr.

    MacIntyre, Mr.

    MacRobert, Mr.

    Mitchell, Mr. Stephen

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel

    Morrison, Mr. Robert

    Murnin, Mr.

    Richardson, Mr. Robert

    Scrymgeour, Mr.

    Sinclair, Colonel

    Solicitor-General for Scotland, Mr.

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Thomson, Mr. Frederick

    Westwood, Mr.

    Windsor, Mr.

    Wright, Mr.